Author Topic: Glider Kits  (Read 13926 times)

LocalCoilHauler

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2012, 09:27:05 AM »
A glider 386? Are you sure? I thought it was only the hood models.

BTW, what was the 6NZ like as a motor? Good power I assume, but good on fuel as well? Or was it more off a heavy-haul motor?

I wonder if Navistar could be persuaded to make a few gliders now that their engines have earned such a dismal reputation?
Oops, I knew that Peterbilt made gliders but what I was not sure of was their areo models. I have seen tones of 389 Gliders but I have never seen a 386 Glider. The reason I'd like a 386 is that I think it is the best areo looking truck besides a Volvo if you make it look right. Oso Im pretty sure the 6NZ was designed for more of a heavy haul motor.
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convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2012, 10:30:26 AM »
We are primarily local to St. Louis.  We do everything from shuttling trailers in our rental fleet to heavy haul.  With our range of accounts,  we can't use a one size fits all spec.  We have single axle automatic daycabs up thru heavy tandems with small sleepers for the occasional overnight run.

When we inquired about Peterbilts, we were told by 2 different dealer chains that they offered 386, 388 and 389 Glider kits, bare or rolling. 

The 6NZ Cat's seem to be the most legendary for having been the best of the line.  We had a 6NZ and loved it and it was in a heavy spec T800H.  When we made the decision to go with a glider, I wanted a truck that would be very serviceable on the road and would have components that would still be easy to find parts and expertise for in 20 to 30 years, sort of like the modern equivalent of an NTC Cummins.  With Cat being primarily out of the on-highway market (ignoring their flailing in-house truck), getting parts or service for them will be very difficult in 20 years.  Also, the Cat engines are probably the least fuel-efficient.  Cummins would have been ok, but the 12.7 EPA '98 seemed to get the all-around best reviews for longevity, fuel economy and serviceability.  That was a hard pill for me to swallow because I have always been partial to Mack and Cat products.  Mack wouldn't build a glider and I already discussed Cat.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 10:47:25 AM by convoyduel »

jonboy

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2012, 09:38:02 AM »
Convoyduel, without prying into your personal info, or revealing too much, could you give me a ball park figure of the amount you figure you saved going glider as opposed to brand new.....
like 15% 25%????

I just drove my buddy's 12.7L DD pre-emission 4900 WS, and I fell in love!!!!
That was my first drive in a star, and loved everything about it!

convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2012, 02:49:12 PM »
Not revealing anything too secretive I suppose:

Glider cost powered as shown (lots of upgrades): $85k
DD12.7L Core Charge:  $3500 additional if I don't return a donor engine to the dealer/factory
Components:  under $10k additional invested

Cost of identically spec'd truck new (with DD EPA '10 Engine) including 12% FET:  $154K

We expect we're saving around $50k or 33% total, but that's assuming we would have bought brand new in the first place (which we wouldn't).  The glider came in with a number in the price range of "used" trucks we were looking at.  There was no way in God's green Earth that I was going to pay $90k for a lower to mid mileage used EPA '07 tractor.  For the same money, we have a factory warrantied rebuilt engine, a whole new cab, chassis, cooling, electrical, air and A/C system.  Oh, and no urea tank.  :)

I suspect we could have shaved $5k or better off of the glider just by choosing fewer options, such as interior upgrades, gauges, painted tanks, etc.  We found though that the relatively small price of those features made a world of difference to us.  The DD Core Charge applies if you're not turning in a DDEC 3 or better core.  There is a penalty for DDEC 1 and DDEC 2 cores, but its around $500 to $750.  The core doesn't have to run, just have to turn over freely.

There are a lot of rules to follow on cost, pricing, etc.  The gotcha is that the total cost of the glider, including rebuilding of components, is factored in with everything you buy over a 6 month period.  So, you can't defer certain component upgrades or new tires trying to avoid the IRS FET cap.   I'm well below that number, but I'm donating my own labor and using decent components that we haven't had to completely rebuild from the ground up.  I received labor quotes of around $12K to complete the glider using my supplied components. 

Financing was available thru DTNA and GE Capital.  Both had excellent rates.  Down payment options ranged from $5K (plus supplied components) to $13K.  Financing doesn't fund until the DMV inspection is complete and truck is ready to title. 

We're going to reasonably detail the process and share it, mostly because we could find no real good information out there for others to consider.  For us, this was easily the way to go.

canadman

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2012, 05:16:13 PM »
I think once all the emissions crap is figured out and it clean as possible, cat will be back into truck engines, emissions crap is coming for all engines in any equipment.

jonboy

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2012, 07:08:03 PM »
Thank you for such an informative post. Its mind boggling the amount you saved going with a glider over a dealer bought new truck.

I was curious of the cost, because Fitzgerald Truck Sales does up the freightliner coronado as a glider, but its road ready. They run around $110,000 to $120,000, alot of money but still a far cry from the $150,000 for new.

Did you happen to have a spare DDEC3 on hand for the core?
You mentioned previously that it will have 46K rears with airliner suspension. Is this factory or you are installing them?

You sure are right about the lack of good info online for gliders. I look forward to your process of getting this baby on the road.
And thanks again for the info Convoyduel.

convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2012, 07:28:29 PM »
I had a truck i was going to use as a full donor but I think it fell thru.  Not a big deal, I have a donor truck for everything except the motor if necessary.

The way the DTNA gliders work is that they install the forward spring hanger brackets and the shock support but the rest of the parts are in the box.  The truck comes with a completely new rear suspension in the box, we just have to supply the axles.  You can spec probably 20 different types of suspensions or more, the key is to have the glider built with the new suspension that's the same as your donor axles to make everything just a swap and bolt operation.  Changing suspensions gets ugly with the different mounting locations for the transverse torque arms. 

Fitzgerald isn't completely out of line with their prices.  I believe they typically order rolling gliders (all new axles, tires and wheels) and supply rebuilt engines and transmissions instead of having the factory install the rebuilt engine.  You're going to incur a labor charge of somewhere between $10k and $20k to put one of these together, depending on shop rates, experience and how install-ready the components are that you supply.  Also, they take care of the DMV hassle in verifying serial numbers and completing final inspections. 

The amount of savings on a glider is unbelievable if you have the means and know-how.  Even paying for it to be done, you're still coming out ahead.  We've had 2 rental trucks for seasonal peaks in our operation and both were costing us $.03 per mile in DEF.  Great trucks, but $.03 per mile is a significant cost in the bottom line of trucking.  That's on top of all of the downtime for repairs and the inability for us to complete most any engine repair in-house.   


v8mack500

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2012, 10:49:15 AM »
Hey convoy kw is going to be making gliders sales guy was in yard today. funny think is i asked him month ago an he said paccar didn't want them to compete with peterbilt, how funny now they do. I do like your steel wheels on your truck but a neway would of looked better then your airliner  ;D.

convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2012, 10:57:45 AM »
Interesting about KW.  They would have been a good choice as well.  There is some inside word that the EPA is going to shut down gliders by requiring the vehicle to meet the emissions standards of the year of production of the vehicle VIN.  Gliders have their own new VIN, so that would kill the ability to load in an older engine platform without heavy fines.  Peterbilt only builds gliders to the current engine emissions level so any retrofitting is up to  the assembler or purchaser.   

v8mack500

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »
He told us that if we got a kit it would be wire as for  back to 2003 so the c15 single turbo would plug in boss is thinking hard inside truck is good outside frame is rusting an lived a hard life. will let you know what happens.

convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2012, 12:26:01 PM »
I would urge him to do research on that.  I've seen some posts (if you believe everything you read on the internet) where people were told the same thing about Peterbilt gliders but found out the hard way about all of the wiring harnesses they had to order and retrofitting to make it work. 

The other issue that I've found out thru my experience with this is that although the trucks may look the same on the outside, there have been a whole bunch of changes to frames, mountings, radiators, etc that ripple thru a truck to accommodate the EPA '04, EPA '07 and EPA'10 engines.  Frames are often now wider up front or are lower, different, etc. so that the old engines and mounting systems don't transition over easily or at all.  I have been shocked at the number of things that changed even though cabs and hoods look "the same" between model years to most.  I can bore you with details but everything, even battery boxes and bumpers may be different.  While that may seem off-topic, what it does mean is that if KW no longer builds a current production frame to accommodate a Cat, they either have to build the glider on an older generation frame (like Freightliner and Western Star do) or you're taking a big big big risk. 

v8mack500

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2012, 02:39:31 PM »
Thats good to here i will tell him,mech wants western star anyway with the n14 cummins reman so could be fun.

convoyduel

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2012, 07:49:12 PM »
As of 7/20, they also are offering the w900 series.  Note the limited availability of axle and suspension configurations, along with the mention of "current" cooling systems and other things.  Hopefully, they're not as proud of them as Peterbilt. 


June 15, 2012. Kenworth is pleased to introduce a glider kit to support 2004 EPA emissions engines. Models available are the T800 split fender, and the T660. Production will begin during third quarter 2012. Until the program sales codes are available in the Data Book and PROSPECTOR®, dealers should follow the ordering process outlined in this bulletin.
Program Details

· Orders of three or more will be prioritized.
· Model choice: T800 Split Fender, or T660.
· Customer supplied automatic and automated transmissions required to be same vintage as engine.
· Rolling or Non-rolling.
· Cab and Interior – current production.
· All sleeper sizes available.
· Electrical architecture (NAMux 3).
· Cooling module – current production.
· Limited battery box, tool box and fuel tank configurations available (see tables below).
· No ship-loose parts.
Rolling Gliders Include:
· Published Dana rear axles, published Bendix brakes, wheels and tires.
· Proprietary Suspensions only, AG380/400/460/400L.
· Published 5th wheel.
· Air system / tanks / piping / ABS.
· Suspension cross-members / tail lamps / mudflaps.
· Tractor kits.

Oso2

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2012, 11:28:37 PM »
While that may seem off-topic, what it does mean is that if KW no longer builds a current production frame to accommodate a Cat, they either have to build the glider on an older generation frame (like Freightliner and Western Star do) or you're taking a big big big risk.

Personally, that's my biggest problem with gliders. I like the comfort and smooth ride of the latest designs. Take the Cascadia glider - something that I'd be interested in. But as far as I know it's incompatible with anything pre-2004. (I don't know if they'd even build something that could accept a 12.7 detroit.) I'm talking about customer-supplied engines here. I know for a fact that Freightliner won't build a Cascadia with a pre-egr engine.

That leaves a Coronado or Columbia. I would never, ever, buy a Columbia - just based on interior noise levels alone. I imagine that the Coronado isn't much better. Maybe there's some sort of extra sound-proofing you could add (sound-dampening sheets perhaps?) A T-660 sounds acceptable. But again, it isn't compatible with a pre-2004 engine (according to the last post.) Not that I'm crazy about the small cab.

I'd never buy a classic-styled truck because aerodynamics have come a long way since then. And most people claim a 1mpg (+ or -) difference between the two styles of truck, all other things being equal. That's a lot of money. If I could wave my magic wand, I'd get either a Prostar or Volvo VN - probably with a 12.7 Detroit, but perhaps a Cummins.

(But then again if I had a magic wand I'd probably wish for an inexpensive and reliable new truck.  :-X )
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Oso2

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Re: Glider Kits
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »
Spoke with FL of Kalamazoo today. It's funny, but whenever I start talking about gliders the salesmen always tell me that a new truck with a really good warranty is a better way to go. They have a lot more faith in the 2010 technology.
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